Curse

Avarre · Apr 19, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

I'm going to respond to this as I read some things that made me flinch. This is not an attack, but my opinion, as an experienced PvE player, on what has been said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

[INDENT] Scope: Some professions are better at dealing with a large group, where the Mesmer is a more focused profession and the contribution they're making to a party may not be as easily seen. While they can do what they do very well indeed, they are not as likely to have a pile of bodies at their feet, which means that some of their party members may not realize how much the Mesmer is actually contributing to the battle.

The problem is not the lack of flashy lights. The problem is not that people can't tell what the Mesmer is going. The problem is the point that gets skimmed over; The mesmer can do what they do very well indeed, but what it does is not important. There is no role the Mesmer serves that cannot be surpassed by another focused class. I was actually confused on whether this was an analysis or something that the team copied off GWO, because 'people can't tell what the Mesmer is doing, so they don't want them' has been a common sentiment for years - and has recently become false. People can see what the Mesmer is doing - it just isn't doing anything. The Mesmer is ' not as likely to have a pile of bodies at their feet', but leaving bodies at your feet is the entire point of PvE - either killing the monsters or keeping your team alive long enough to do so - and other classes have more effective disruption (meteor showers, ranger interrupts) while still having the capability to deal damage. Simply, there is no role for the design purpose of the Mesmer, and this is due to several issues (which I outlined on my thread in the Mesmer forum).

Quote:

Of course, whether the swath is fine or broad, it all requires…
Skill: The Mesmer profession requires a high level of skill to play well. That's not to say that other professions do not also require skill, but the Mesmer is rather more complex, and it's possible that across the board, there is a wider range of skill in the Mesmer player group as a whole.

Oh? A great number of people say the Mesmer needs more skill because of the less direct nature of the skills. Does it really?

The absolute best Mesmer PvE skills have always been domination damage skills - the ones that require no skill to use. Empathy on melee, backfire on casters - this is not hard to do. Interrupting isn't even unique to Mesmers. Shutdown is a joke in PvE, thanks to the policy of making areas hard with lots of high-health enemies.

The complex parts of the Mesmer are not the best. The best skills in the Mesmer lines are the simplest ones, for the most part. Some of these reward skill (diversion), but their use in PvE is near to null.

Spreading degen does not take skill. Putting the right hex on the right foe is not skill. In fact - these 'skills' are shared by most other classes. Relating subtlety to skill is not necessarily accurate. At the absolute most, they require some knowledge (backfire tends to be ineffective on Anur Rand mobs).

Quote:

Because of this, the Mesmer can be faced with …
Skepticism: When people form a party, particularly a pick-up group, they don't really know for certain if they are choosing a highly skilled Mesmer or someone who's less likely to make a major contribution. When faced with the choice of partners, they may take the easier road, even if they're missing the opportunity to have a more fun and more successful adventure by including a Mesmer.

The issue of collecting someone with skill is an issue for every class - bad monks, bad eles, bad warriors are just as common if not more so - people simply gloss over this as their job is simple, and their simple job is effective. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, and don't bring a Mesmer to an AoE nukefest. Chances of success are not necessarily linked to a Mesmer with the exception of certain niche situations where they are more useful - which is the problem with a great deal of classes which either have design aims inconsistant with PvE itself, or design aims that are not clear.

Quote:

]The word from Lead Designer James Phinney on Mesmers is that the designers are going to take a look at potentially widening the scope of the Mesmers and, perhaps, adding more damage to the mix in a "Mesmer-themed way." The Mesmer will never become a pure damage-dealer, not at all! But the team wants to look at an increase in both scope and damage while considering how to improve the lot of Mesmers in PvE.

Do you want to improve Mesmers in PvE? Really? I'll tell you how.

Rethink the design of PvE.

Adding more damage skills in the game, and introducing larger packs of higher health mobs reduces the use of Mesmers - who without the damage to compete against ridiculously out of line mobs (1000 health Anurs?), and without the AoE to deal with pack size (Urgoz Warren anybody?), with every 'elite area' the use of Mesmers is being decreased.

You said PvP is where Mesmers are useful. Make PvE enemies more like PvP enemies. Give them REAL skill lists and synergizing skills. Make more enemies like the Jade Brotherhood and less like Anurs. Make difficulty come from the ability of the enemy rather than brute numerical force, and the effects of disabling and incapacitating enemies becomes more valid. You don't need to make numbers higher to increase challenge, that is exactly the opposite of the origins of the game.

If your foes are 10 juggernauts that fight as if they were alone, it makes sense to just kill them with damage because they will drop before you do if you are prepped. If you fight 10 mixed foes that all support each other, you can have the same difficulty, with monsters that aren't supercharged, and in a situation where knocking out a link becomes that much more effective in taking down a group.

I don't mean offence, but the depth of the viewpoint that was put forward is the kind of thing I would expect off a random GWO poster, and not from an examination of the class.

cthulhu reborn · Apr 19, 2007, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Animal

The current state of Soul Reaping has certainly caused more problems than it solved, and is clunky and inelegant. It was probably a mistake to give spirits a "soul" that could be reaped... but what a slow reaction, is it only Gaile of the ANet people who actually gets in there and plays the game?

In all honesty, I think a lot of us may underestimate the factors involved in a change like this. I think Anet may have been hesitant in the SR change and were trying to figure out what to do with it. I think they've gone through many scenario's in trying to think up the best option to put a limit on it but not making the class unplayable.
Of course, the longer you wait the harder it gets. And I think they took into account a lot of factors but as theory is still far from practice they didn't see a couple of things coming.
GW is a big game now with its 3 chapters and there are lots of skills. Any change to a primary has a lot of consequences.

Maybe Anet was a bit surprised and disappointed because they probably put in a lot of time to figure this thing out and now there is such a storm of negative reactions.

I suppose when something is a lengthy process it gets harder and harder to see what's happening. We've asked for a change now and I can imagine that it may not be so easy to do this or that change but that it takes a lot of work and testing...again in this case. Life can be a pain...

So yes, we need to get rid of the 5 second rule. That was the thing that makes this nerf a bad one, but I imagine reworking it may actually take some doing.

I personally would've thought that it would've been easier and better to have minions and spirits only give you 0 or perhaps 1 energy as their existence is too fleeting and other deaths a more limited gain like 1e for every 2 levels of soul reaping.

But it is harder for me to oversee what is involved in putting that into place.

At a time like this I would actually be interested to know how the devs feel about all this and what moves them. Perhaps people can be a bit more understanding. At this point we should've passed the point of anger anyway and be more constructive. At least that's how I feel.

Draikin · Apr 19, 2007, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Do you want to improve Mesmers in PvE? Really? I'll tell you how.

Rethink the design of PvE.

I completely agree, making PvE more difficult has always been about increasing the number of enemies and increasing the damage they do so it's no surprise that people don't want to have mesmers in their team. If the AI actually avoided AoE effect spells and knew how to use all the skills correctly and showed at least some form of teamwork then people might actually consider using a mesmer.

Shanaeri Rynale · Apr 19, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

One hopes this is called Hardmode.

If it's not I dont see another rework of PvE anytime soon. It would not be economically viable I think to revise every mob and patrol path in all 3 chapters again. Althoguh a lot of mob issues could be solved just by adding in a decent monk bar and more use of res skills.

That leaves us with the next best thing. Skills. Anyway Hard mode will be here soon and we'll see how things are then.

VinnyRidira · Apr 19, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

I am not happy with the state of SR at present, and I have been quite vocal about that so I am not going to reiterate what I have said before. I have 8 characters that I have played up to level 20 and completed campaigns with.

My first character is a warrior which I have mostly played with a Mesmer secondary.

My second character is a mesmer which I originally set up with a Ranger secondary, but generally only play as mesmer.

My third character is a ritualist which I have always played as an attacking and not a nurturing ritualist.

My fourth character is an elementalist and perhaps the most versatile profession with huge amounts of energy and potential for massive damage.

My fifth character is a ranger and also is versatile, perhaps a little harder to play than the elementalist.

I have an assassin who I never really play.

I had a dervish but I cannot understand why a close up fighter has no good armour.

I have a paragon who is a ranged fighter and has good armour but requires quite a lot of concentration to keep the energy up. But he is a good axe warrior substitute even if he looks ungainly wielding an axe, lol. Or as my young son says "it looks so gay!" bearing in mind the newest meaning of gay that being wrong.

I have a necro who is still fun to play even with the current SR status, but if I did not have the Signet of Lost Souls would be a pain to play with now.

Of course I can never see myself playing a monk. I sometime play a smiting elementalist or a smiting necro.

I am really looking forward to see the mesmer given his due. I guess without the mesmer skills I would still be trying to kill Shiro in Cantha and Elona.

I also hope that a decent change is made for the necromancer.

Good Luck with the changes.

Bekkr · Apr 19, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Something that just occurred to me... would love some feedback on it:

What if SR worked on the same mechanic as XP does? That is to say, you gain energy at 1 per point in SR for any enemy the same level as you *that you take part in killing*, or friendly minions, and then it scales both down AND up from there. While very similar to many other suggestions already put forth, the twist is that the maximum gain from minions would be less than full, but not quite half, and it would help to balance things out in PvE (as I don't really PvP very much, I won't comment on viability there). I can't bring to mind the exact numbers wrt how XP scales, but it seems it would "even out" the energy gains between low and high level areas pretty well. For example, a level 5 critter dies, you get 2 energy with 10 SR. Kill a level 28 boss with the same SR, and you get 20 energy. Exploitation of zero or low level minions would be done away with as well. As to spirits, there would be any number of ways to handle that... could either be half (which would be less than the current "half" at anything but very low SR levels, as I think spirits max out at a lower level than minions).

Also, seeing as how the XP mechanic already exists, it seems this could be a relatively simple thing to implement code-wise.

Anyway, would love some opinions on whether or not something along these lines would work, and if not, why not.

Cheers,
-B.
*dons flame-retardant suit, just in case*

Sea Edge · Apr 19, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Do you want to improve Mesmers in PvE? Really? I'll tell you how.

Rethink the design of PvE.

QFT.

Mesmers have no role in PVE, because:

Half hex duration on foes (Ok, Wastrel's Worry rocks )
Human interruption is useless if you can't spam them, because foes always (or just too often) cast spells in half time, so reaction + LAG = wasted energy
Diversion is useless beacuse of 1. and monster skills.
E-denial DOES NOT work in PVE, even warrior foes have more than 2 pips enery regen and it seems that caster foes have near infinite energy pool or incredibly high regen. e.g. Bringer of Deceit spams heal party like there's no tomorrow
Hordes of steriod foes in a single group

VinnyRidira · Apr 19, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

...

Do you want to improve Mesmers in PvE? Really? I'll tell you how.

Rethink the design of PvE.

Adding more damage skills in the game, and introducing larger packs of higher health mobs reduces the use of Mesmers - who without the damage to compete against ridiculously out of line mobs (1000 health Anurs?), and without the AoE to deal with pack size (Urgoz Warren anybody?), with every 'elite area' the use of Mesmers is being decreased.

You said PvP is where Mesmers are useful. Make PvE enemies more like PvP enemies. Give them REAL skill lists and synergizing skills. Make more enemies like the Jade Brotherhood and less like Anurs. Make difficulty come from the ability of the enemy rather than brute numerical force, and the effects of disabling and incapacitating enemies becomes more valid. You don't need to make numbers higher to increase challenge, that is exactly the opposite of the origins of the game.

If your foes are 10 juggernauts that fight as if they were alone, it makes sense to just kill them with damage because they will drop before you do if you are prepped. If you fight 10 mixed foes that all support each other, you can have the same difficulty, with monsters that aren't supercharged, and in a situation where knocking out a link becomes that much more effective in taking down a group.

I don't mean offence, but the depth of the viewpoint that was put forward is the kind of thing I would expect off a random GWO poster, and not from an examination of the class.

Give mesmer's AoE interrupts and AoE degen. How about AoE energy theft but please dont add the 5 second rule. LOL

unbound00 · Apr 19, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Gaile,
I am happy to see this update as it has reassured me that Anet is being true to their philosophy and actually taking the view of players into consideration (note that some would disagree, but I think there's a difference between taking orders of what to do from players and reflecting on what they have to say to take it into consideration). I just urge you and all of Anet to think about what I, and quite a number of people, have said in the previous discussion regarding the Skills associated with Soul Reaping, energy management skills and the respective campaigns in which they are avaiable. I do actually believe Anet is not just up for money and commercial cohertion, as to me it's actions have proven differently in a number of ocasions, so with that in mind, please don't disregard this issue as you rethink Soul Reaping and the Necromancer profession.

To note, in accordance to what Gaile said, while playing a Necromancer before the Soul Reaping nerf, I really very rarely thought about how is my energy doing in this or that situation in PVE and in Alliance Battles or Fort Aspenwood, except for the unordinary occasion when I really spent it all up. Therefore I speak as a player who agrees to the nerf but is not entirely happy with the timer.

tru explorer · Apr 19, 2007, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Balancing the professions is within bounds good and it seems the players adapt.

That said major changes to the way Soul Reaping works can have perhaps more affects than initially thought - weapon modification choices. For example, I like the high +15 -1 mod on a necro weapon.

The first death is sometimes problematic for a necro and soul reaping. (I play a MM as N/ra with a dire pet named tru minion for that reason - nice to have a minion with interupts and health regen) When I play curses I also like the inital energy to get the deaths going..... for soul reaping to kick in.

Very lightly here Necros have weak armor, many skills that sacrifice health to work..... there only real advantage is their energy and in some cases minions.

Increasing cast times or energy costs can compensate for the basic fundemental of soul reaping providing a steady flow of energy and seems a better way to tweak the profession.

cyberjanet · Apr 19, 2007, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyRidira

I am really looking forward to see the mesmer given his due. I guess without the mesmer skills I would still be trying to kill Shiro in Cantha and Elona.

Agreed. I think if you want Masters against Shiro, a mesmer is essential.

And that means that the suggestion of a redesign of PvE is right. We need more bosses only a mesmer can kill. Well, not quite only, but has the highest guaranteed success rate. (The ranger ebon dust aura build helped a lot against Shiro in Elona.) How about treasure chests/hidden treasures in Cantha and Tyria guarded by such type creatures? Quests with incentive. Cooler weapon drops.

Or some things in hard mode that become ridiculously easy [well maybe not ridiculously...] if you have a skilled mesmer in tow?

Or how about a Weekend Event that gives Mesmers a chance to shine? In which only groups with non-Norgu mesmers can get a mini-mesmer for party members when they successfully complete some arduous task.

The other option is really cool skills that only work with fast casting, so they're virtually useless on a mesmer secondary. Perhaps those are coming in GWEN?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bekkr

What if SR worked on the same mechanic as XP does? That is to say, you gain energy at 1 per point in SR for any enemy the same level as you *that you take part in killing*, or friendly minions, and then it scales both down AND up from there.

Creative thinking. I have no idea how it would work. Perhaps the author of the soul-reaping nerf script would like to script this and give a view.

freakdaddy · Apr 19, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadmonkey4u

Glad to see a-net taking the time to look at the suggestions of people. o_O

actually it's just anet browsing these hallowed forums looking for something to nerf because they have an insatiable thirst for nerfing things. ie UW 55 monk/SS Necro and now it seems each week they're nerfing something else. PLEASE stop messing with the friggin game WOW the game was fun like 6 or 7 months ago and now i'm contemplating shelving the game and heading back to FPS's. that is after i have already completed all 3 chapters and darn near lost my marriage over this game ....pffft! and who and the heck wants to play with a mesmerer. have ya'll seen they're armor?

In the words of Johnny Blaze "Flame On!!!!"

tru explorer · Apr 19, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I like the mesmer and use them often even the hench mesmer comes along when building a group. It is interesting that the discussion here is about Necros and Mesmers. I find the real issue with a mesmer is Lack of energy. Yes there are lots of skills that allow you to capture energy and you can make an effective focused build ..... but when thinking about mesmers my fist thought is how to manage energy. Necros how to get the first couple of deaths to get energy flowing and if the area has enough and the right type of foe to support a minion master.

Most of the other characters I think of the role in the group first.

red orc · Apr 19, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Anet, you dont need to add aoe skills to mes or make them nukers. Just improove AI on npc monks and such in the coming expansion and everybody would ask mes very nicely to join the group.
If you make NCPs AI smarter, and we know you do, cause you showed us in heros you can improove them, then brute force will only get you killed and you need to start working with your group effort to win.
Maybe even imprve the AI only in hard mode, so regular pveers will not run away to wow to jump as a group a single monster.
Lets say a monk actualy uses lod correctly, and protect spells and kite an attack. Lets assume ele in the mob can sync an attack that will spike you and kill you unless you interrupt them then you will need in pve when is needed in pvp and mes with all thier skills will be critical to your win.

Terra Xin · Apr 19, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Edge

Mesmers have no role in PVE, because:

Half hex duration on foes (Ok, Wastrel's Worry rocks )
Human interruption is useless if you can't spam them, because foes always (or just too often) cast spells in half time, so reaction + LAG = wasted energy
Diversion is useless beacuse of 1. and monster skills.
E-denial DOES NOT work in PVE, even warrior foes have more than 2 pips enery regen and it seems that caster foes have near infinite energy pool or incredibly high regen. e.g. Bringer of Deceit spams heal party like there's no tomorrow
Hordes of steriod foes in a single group

Of course Mesmers have a role in PvE, it's to 'Mesmerize'. The problem is that this particular role is inferior towards any other profession. Why bother with mesmerizing a target when you can just nuke the crap out of them? Aside, even if a Mesmer was favored for its 'skill', rangers can spam interrupts, eles have better snares, and parties don't like it when you're not following the leader's target. The supposed role of the mesmer has already been taken up by other classes. So it's not as though the mesmer's role doesn't exist, but its just ineffective.

I can see how improving PvE would be better for the mesmer, but there are also skills in this profession that don't see the light of either PvP or PvE.

I'll say this over and over again, Mesmers have not relied on their skill to survive these past two years, no. They relied on the following three:

1: Their attire
2: Testimonials and Outspoken people
3: Getting a party invitation by default

If it wasn't for having these three, the Mesmer would have died earlier on, and, the Mesmers would have gotten their attention sooner. But if any player took a look at the mesmer, and then made a comparison to another profession in terms of 'what a party needs in a particular quest/mission', then the only time a mesmer would be included into a party if there really was no one else to fill the required role.

A mesmer can do anything that any other class has accomplished, and because of this simple fact, one can challenge themselves as a Mesmer to go into very difficult areas and still come out triumphant - but that doesn't make them unique or skillful.

lyra_song · Apr 19, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyRidira

Give mesmer's AoE interrupts and AoE degen. How about AoE energy theft but please dont add the 5 second rule. LOL

AoE interrupt - Cry of Frustration

AoE degen is more on the Necromancer line.

AoE energy steal - Signet of weariness

These skills are good...but really...theres no point to them in PvE

-------------------
Ranger Interrupt VS Mesmer interrupt. There seems to be some rubbish that rangers are better at interruption than mesmers.

Rangers interrupts are cheaper and by far easier to spam. They often have no "additional" effect, other than damage, with except of [wiki]Broadhead Arrow[/wiki], which i think pays for its high cost.

Mesmer interrupts cause way, way more damage, specifically to spellcasters and more negative impact to the target or positive impact to the caster (like [wiki]Power Block[/wiki] or [wiki]Power Spike[/wiki]).

Mesmers also have melee interrupt like [wiki]Ineptitude[/wiki] and [wiki]Clumsiness[/wiki] which are just fun vs Assassins ^^ oh lets not forget [wiki]Psychic Distraction[/wiki]

De Maximoff · Apr 19, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

We all know they do just fine in PvP.

Yes but there are players like myself that could care less about PVP and only play PVE so thank you for finally looking at Mesmers in PVE. Overuse in PVP should not determine skill nerfing in PVE in my opinion.

Quote:

The Mesmer will never become a pure damage-dealer, not at all!

I think this is good news as well. If I want to play a damage dealer I'll play as my Elementalist. For once I look forward to the changes in store for the Mesmer.

Sea Edge · Apr 19, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by red orc

Lets assume ele in the mob can sync an attack that will spike you and kill you unless you interrupt them then you will need in pve when is needed in pvp and mes with all thier skills will be critical to your win.

A ranger is far more effective in shutting down spellcasters than a mesmer ever will be. Shoot broadhead arrow on the spellcaster while the rest of the team is doing 'chop-chop' and laugh.

Captain Robo · Apr 19, 2007, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Perhaps if enemies were more like... say, the Zaishen team you fight right before Hall of Heroes (unworthies, whatever they're called), more groups would be mesmer friendly.

In terms of AI and skill, those enemies are the hardest foes you fight in the entire game.

SotiCoto · Apr 19, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

So basically.... this is an update to tell us that nothing has changed.... but that they might... maybe... be considering making some very minor changes to things people have been complaining constantly about.

¬_¬